A long time ago, BBB got me a little… Umm pissed off isn’t the right term, because he didn’t piss me off, but he did say something that got me very annoyed.
Now this was in the midst of what is otherwise (as usual) a very good post about the pain of PvP achievements in a world filled with (differing sorts of) PvE.
What got to me (and this is a really bad paraphrase that will make BBB sound worse than he is) was the sentiments that:
- PvE is for teams
- PvP is for individuals
- Teams of PvE players unite to defeat bosses.
- Individuals go Chuck Norris to win PvP.
What about PvP (Player vs Player)? How is it any different?
In PvP, it’s all about personal excellence against other living, thinking, reacting and planning opponents.
Real people, fighting against each other and using every trick they can think of, all in a fluid combat environment that requires various Battlefield objectives be met for faction victory.
But whether or not your faction reigns supreme, the focus is entirely on personal accomplishments, on excellence in playing your own character as an individual.
The line may seem to get blurred a bit, because overall success or failure within the Battleground hinges on how many players to a side both kicked individual ass AND were able to work together towards these Battlefield objectives.
At the end of the battle, however, it’s not just win or lose for a side. No, in a PvP Battleground, there is a Leaderboard that pops up which breaks the results of the entire battle down into individual accomplishments.
The leaderboard does show information that relates to team play. Who captured or assaulted flags or towers, etc. But all of the information, including numbers of honorable kills, is clearly presented, by intentional design, to single out and recognize excellence in individual effort. To put things in a ”MVP” perspective.
edit: I need to point out that at the time of his post, he did clarify his position and it wasn’t what “I had read”. Still BBB & I have a long and happy tradition of throwing things at each other and there was also a point to be made to a greater less informed audience. Apologies to BBB for an anger directed at him.
STOP THE ROT!
Everyone KNOWS that PvE is about team cooperation.
Many people THINK that PvP is about 10,15,40,120 individuals doing their own thing.
I want this message to stop right now – this is the reason BGs turn to shit. New and even old players think that “going hero”, playing by themselves wins BGs.
- Chuck Norris is a NOOB!
- Being a hero loses BGs!
- Being a hero loses PvE encounters too!
We have all been in instances & raids where “a” player goes all Chuck Norris and tries to defeat an instance solo.
- The Tank charging ahead alone.
- The Healer pulling for the Tank.
- The DPS, so full of themselves, pulling aggro every fight on every mob, because their DPS is so uber that they could solo single pull the instance with one hand tied behind their back.
Do we approve of this behaviour?
When LFD was introduced, the root of 51% of the QQ was heroes forcing us to play their way, wiping the group and hearthing.
When you put this in a 10 or 25 man PvE environment you get 9 or 24 people screaming for blood and repair money.
Weekend at Bernies
Yeah they do.
It’s a nightmare in PvP because sometimes the win goes to the side with the least AFKers.
Of course individuals AFK in PvE as well. Ohhh they might do some damage… White damage… but they aren’t a part of the team.
People HATE Premades!
Battle Grounds are the original 10 man raids. Back when you were dealing with 40 man raids WSG and AB were the mini raids of the future, with AV the 40 man equivalent.
No one hates organised guild raids, yet say “premade BG group” and people cry.
PuG raids are fine, but PuG battleground groups make people cry.
I’ve play the range of Premade to Pug, in both PvE and PvP. 25 man guild raid, guild raid with PuGs to fill the numbers, full PuG raid. The same in PvP, exactly the same.
The issue is that In BGs, Blizzard mechanics (and people’s attitudes) forces a predominance of PuG groups. Not just that, but there isn’t any sophisticated LFD style “select your role” which gives you the perfect balance of classes and roles in BGs.
But PvP Guilds are coming?
Yeah, this has me a bit confused.
The reason it has me confused is that PvP Guilds = Premades and at this point in time Blizzard is actively discourage, nay completely stopping Premades.
You want to run some BGs with your mates… make sure you only have 4 mates, because Blizzard has now limited the the number of people that can join as a group to 5 – half a WSG, a 1/3 of an AB, SotA or EotS, and 1/8th of an AV or IoC.
You can’t even enter the 120 person battleground that is Wintergrasp as a group of any size… well, I guess you can, but you don’t get extra bodies, thus you don’t get the benefits of playing with more of the 120 body pool.
BBB may think we are a bunch of Chuck Norris, but in reality Blizzard has made this so – or at least, removed the ability to prepare and act as a group without certain tricks.
The trick, which even Blizzard is trying to stop via changes to interfaces, is to join a premade group. You might have a premade/PvP Guild on your server, but for those of you that don’t there are options such as x-server Battlegroup Premade.
On Bloodlust battlegroup, there are two that know of specifically and I believe there are others (as I have seen similar macros and vent details exchanged).
Hordeside: Proudfather Airlines (Also Alliance side Rampage battlegroup)
Aliiance: QueueQ Premades
When you run with groups like this, you realise how ridiculous BBB’s statements are. They are as fine tuned as Guild Raid groups. There is no more “I” in the battleground than there is in a Raid. Yes individuals make important contributions at times, but just as in raids, it is a rare day that a BG is won by an individual. There is an expectation that everyone will play their character correctly, not make stupid mistakes and the group will win.
Occasionally a player will get singled out for top heals or dps – which is no different than in raid, even if you need a 3rd party product to show it for PvE. However this is frustrating, because normally the top DPS got there with top support, the top healer had lots to heal and had covering fire to keep them alive.
There are some BGs where I am top damage or top heals – that isn’t because of me, it’s because of circumstances. Other times I am bottom of the rung.. maybe I volunteered to guard a base that didn’t have any conflict. I could have chased the conflict to increase my numbers, but that would have been against the needs of the team. Does the kiter in a raid, drop the kiting for some uber dps? Does the tank go for the damage meters or stick on the boss?
From my experiences in QQ, anyone that goes Chuck Norris, off doing their own thing will be shown the door. We have commanders, when they tell you where to go, whether you like it or not, you jump, not even wasting the breath to ask “How high?”
BBB mentions the recognition of individual efforts and I have already covered the ingame DPS charts (I wonder why they haven’t introduced this to PvE?), but as for BG Achievements, some can be achieved by individual actions, but most call on a group effort – or at least the best way to achieve it is a group effort.
Maybe once again, the fault in Blizzard’s past is that by not providing better BG grouping options. Maybe they designed the achievements based on a system they had let become a “single queue”. Although I missed the early days of BGs and the titles and the constant grind to stay at the top, I have heard of many stories where the BG teams would work towards ensuring a specific person gets to the top. People sacrificed their own honor for the team.
The changes are coming.
Premades will gain some respectability in Cataclysm. In fact it will be the only way to gain the mid-level rewards for PvP. Arena will still give the best, Random BGs the worst, but there will be official premades. This is a good thing, as it will enable people that enjoy PvP, are geared for PvP, to play with a TEAM of others in the BGs.
Unfortunately, this will leave the lower eschelon of BGs where people may not play nice – even though that is the way to win.
I dare say I will be in a server based group, of some description. It wont be a guild – I am already in a guild, but I guess it will be a lose collective of PvP fans. I guess I can dream that Blizzard will introduce some way of belonging to multiple “organisations”.
As for the “I” in team
It carries as much weight as the statement there is no “I” in Team. Of course there is… but, not at the expense of the team.
Gnomer and Out!
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