Critted!
OK, I’m still nursing my wounds from Zupa‘s Ice Shards, sneaky frost wielding undead guy, jumping a tier… I didn’t see that coming!
So I am going to step back to full range, and start with Larisa‘s Arcance Subtlety.
To be honest with my 10/48/3 (or Arcane 10, Fire 48, Frost 3 who haven’t caught up with the shorthand) Classic Fire Raiding Spec I am done with Frost. There is another Fire Raiding Spec out there, commonly referred to as the Icy Veins Spec (2/48/11). The thing with this spec is it really doesn’t come into play until you are over 1,100 + damage. OK, so I am, but I’m old (ok maybe not that old), and have stuck with the Classic spec. Remember you can always compare standard Spec’s at Theorycraft-o-Matic by Lhivera.
However I am just beginning with Arcane.
Arcane Subtlety
OK, this is groovy, and is a part of either of the Raid Fire Specs mentioned above. It’s handy for:
- The rare magic resistance on mobs – it doesn’t occur that often to be too excited about, though there would be more benefit in PvP where the opposition will be sporting some level of resistance gear.
- Reduces the threat from your Arcane spells. But I’m fire right, what has that got to do with me?
- Occasionally you will be playing with tank that is struggling to get initial aggro (hopefully not because of you). So a couple of Arcance blasts with reduced aggro means you are on the meters, and starting to bring the mob down, but also building more room to go all out with your true killer spells.
- It is also good for a bit of Arcane Explosion spam. Now let’s face it, you are going to pull aggro anyway, unless someone is doing something special to get the mobs attention (Tankadin anyone?), but it may make the difference of allowing 1 or 2 more explosions to go out before you get shredded.
Moving on, with a quick stop at the Frost tree.
I notice that Zupa negleted to mention a couple of talents in his haste to get to Ice Shards (How did he get to Tier 2 without 5 point in Tier 1?)
- Frost Warding: Yeah rubbish, no wonder he skipped it.
- Improved Frostbolt: Who would cast frost bolts when you can cast fireballs? Mind you .5 off a Frostbolt has to be good, but I will let him tell me why.
Ice Shards
Zupa says:
20% increased crit damage per talent point spent, with 5 points available. Essential for all frost specs.
It sounds pretty good to me.. I believe Crit is a Frost Mage’s bread and butter, so I would be very surpised if there are any Frost mages out there without it. Tell me Zupa, I keep reading/hearing that Crit is a Frost Mages best friend… so what happens now with all the resilience gear floating around?
Anyway.. enough time spent on Ice, let’s talk Fire!
Impact
Ohhhh Ahhh a stunned target.
But as I am sure my wife would say about me.. useless 90% of the time… but when I’m good that 10% of the time, I am very good.
So let’s have a closer look.
10% of your fire spells will effectively root the target in place. From memory this applies to all fire spells, maybe even ticks on those DoT components. It will proc off Molten Armor , but you aren’t getting that spell early in your leveling.
So:
Leveling: Ignore it. It looks great, but it just don’t cut it. You already have enough points to go to the next teir legitimately (glance at Zupa), so go for something else.
Raiding: Ignore it, it’s far too unreliable and a waste of 5 points. Also, I have had the odd complaint from tanks (back when I was spec’ed into it), because if you get an (un)lucky proc at the start of the fight, that mob isn’t hitting the tank, which means the tank isn’t generating aggro.
PvP: OK, PvP is a different story, so it might be worth considering. Why slow a opponent, when you can stun them? If you are running around with Molten armor you are a stunning machine… well ok, 10% of the time.
So a quick look back through the last couple of posts from a fire mage perspective.
Arcane:
Arcane Subtlety: You have to have it as a raiding mage, but can ignore it for a while during the leveling process. You will want to get it to reach the higher Arcane talents if you go classic fire raiding spec.
Fire:
Improved Fireball: You have to get it, it’s no brainer. In fact it will be your first 5 talent points anyway. You will use it all the way to the end.
Frost:
Elemental Precision: Once again, essential for the raiding Mage. OK, maybe not essential, but it’s worth the money. You need this to help you hit mobs that are higher level than you, and you would rather invest in extra +damage or +stamina gear than in extra +Spell Hit gear.
On a side note, unless Blizzard have nurfed the “bug”, fire spells effectively get 3% spell Hit, but Frost Mages get 6% Spell Hit… Yep, another 2 for-the-price-of-one for Frost Mages. That means that Frost mages can invest even more in +damage stats (but hey, let’s face it, they need all the help they can get!)
Anyway.. that’s enough psuedo-theorycrafting from me.. I will be back in a few days with more once I recover from the next salvo of Arcane and Frost.
Gnomer and Out!
This little war of ours is hilarious, considering that I’m the worst amateur theorycrafter in the game EVER and I’m basically just copying the standard raiding specs that more cleaver people have thought out… You’re FORCING me to actually have a look at what the talents are about.
Like the subtlety – I never realized the threat reduction was only for arcane spells. *Blush*. Well, I’m old enough to admit it at least.
But now I’ll have to look up a few things, ponder a bit more and then I’ll be back for another go. Trust me. This fight isn’t over yet!
(Even though I feel more like a clown running around throwing cakes full of cream all over the place than like a hard-hitting argument killing dedicated arcane mage…)
I just want to point out that I can’t understand why you don’t try out the icy veins speck.. Come on! You’re just as old (or… well… young, depending on how you look at it) as me. It really really rocks to see your fireballs suddenly flow away in a speed that makes them look like arcane missiles….
BRB
Yeah I am finding it a laugh too… but man, I got to do the hard work….
I know what you mean.. I’m not a number cruncher, and fundamentally took a spec that was well argued, but then looked into it and saw why it worked… can’t say I am ever going to get down to the fine details tho. I has occurred to me that if we tackle one talent per week (based my my current RL workload, that might even be a stretch), then we will finish covering the WoLK talents just after the release of it’s successor…
Anyway, always good to have to review our talent choices.. even if the end result is just a better understanding…
Why not IcyVeins? No real reason… I think Lhivera’s webpage suggests my dps will increase by the slimmest of margins. And due to the fact that on our average Kara “pug night” (they are all pug nights) We can only rely on 2 dpsers (myself and the rogue), I find myself nearly oom. Sure I could manage it be a bit better… but even so, the 2 of us are making up for the other 3. I don’t want to be top of the meters and oom (and useless) 3/4 into the fight.
I might spec that way… I am tempted.. but apparently I am yet to taste the fruits of Frost or Arcane yet
The answer to Resilience for Frost Mages: Shatter
Hrmm…someone needs to add hybrid trees into the mix. Arcane-boosted Frost, anyone? Elementalists? No? I’d love to see how those builds work out. Just a mere 2-3 sentences from wowwiki doesn’t really whet my appetite that much.
Well Well.
Sorry for jumping a tier, I thought we only got once choice from each tier. I always take improved frostbolt as well naturally, but Ice Shards is my pick of the Tier 2.
Now the thing about resilience, is that mobs don’t have any. I can also expect an additional 10% crit from winters chill during the lion’s share of any decent encounter, but we will get to that one later.
So yes, frost mages crit all the time, and the crits are BIG.
As for PvP when you are dealing with crit-reducing, resilience-stacking opponents, as Tuan says shatter is the way to go. A bonus 50% crit against frozen targets is often the difference between winning and losing.
Unfortunately shatter is less effective in raids as by the time you freeze someone, generally the snare will be broken before you have much time to wind up a frostbolt + icelance and combo them.
In other news… I respecced fire.
yeah you heard right.
it’s only for testing purposes of course. I’ll tell you all about it soon enough!
Scraping jaw off floor…. I’m glad I read to the end of your comment before responding.
Fire.. nice… even for testing purposes…
No worries with skipping a tier… it’s all in the name of fun anyway.
Nice to know that Frost is still the king of PvP, just by throwing in a little more Crit.
I assume that shatter also falls down in raids because you want the mob frozen, which will exclude the bosses. Of course there is enough trash to deal with anyway.
I often wonder if I am short selling my Frosty counterparts when we are grouped together. I tend to Frost Nova as a defense mechanism, but I expect Frosties would like me to Frost Nova as an offensive measure… so they get a bonus Frost Nova that isn’t on their cooldown. Of course there is a good chance my next fireball is going to crit and remove the Frost Nova loving anyway.
The only time I can remember actively dropping Frost Novas was on a Pally-AoE run of shattered halls with a Frosty mate… otherwise it is more of an ohhhh-s^&t button.
Hey Krizzlybear, did I just hear you accepting the challenge of adding Hybrids into the mix?
Remember, you can duck, run & hide, but our heat-seeking missiles will track you down whether you are out of LoS or not!
I see SpicyTuna is already planning out Frost specs for WoLK (beta at least), not sure whether they are of any help to you.
Frost Specs with the WotLK Beta Talents @ http://spicytunas.com/2008/07/frost-specs-with-the-wotlk-beta-talents/
Frost mages might love your novas, but tanks often don’t see it that way as they might be positioning or moving the mobs you just snared
I got in trouble in Hyjal for using nova on a loose mob that someone near me aggroed. Of course this made it hard for the tank to taunt it back, and the silly healer just stood there still in range of the mob anyway getting slapped.
sigh!
OK not really in trouble, but the tank wasn’t happy.
Yeah I must admit I have annoyed the odd tank and hunter.
Tanks for the reason you describe above, and hunters for a similar reason.
ex-Frost Trapped mob comes running towards healers, my automatic reaction… Frost Nova.
Then I look over my shoulder to see the cursing hunter and their frost trap… mmm that mob wasn’t going for the healers after all… it was going for the hunter and his little icy trap.
Needless to say, on those occasions I let it go through to the keeper, the mob stops at a healer, or thumps the hunter a few too many times…. can’t get it right…
I may be the only one but I’ve used FN a lot in connection to AoEing. Like freezing a crowd and then a little AE session.
But of course it demands that you get a shield, just like you pointed out in your what-we-should-know-about-mages post.
But honestly, I’m getting a bit confused about the forms for this vendetta. I started up in the very left corner with Arcane Subtlety. Am I now supposed to go on one step to the right, persuading you that Arcane Focus, which reduce the chances my enemies have to resist my arcane spells with x percent is the best, most valuable talent EVER?
Or am I free to pick ANY goodie from the tree, like Presence of Mind, my lifesaver, my honor saver? Ever happened you were a bit distracted when you were supposed to be sheeping? Your kid started to ask you about something and you turned around to find people cursing you for not sheeping? No problem, PoM will do the trick and you can pretend that everything’s just normal, just as they should be. “Slow, me? Hey, it takes a while to actually convert an orc into a sheep – or pig – try it yourself! There are a lot of formules that need to be read in an appropriate way by a wizard – not anyone can do it!”
You’re the leader of the discussion. Tell me what to do next.
Or maybe I’ll go back to my own blog and make an arcane blast you just can’t resist…. Using my Arcane Focus!
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“but Frost Mages get 6% Spell Hit”
Bear in mind this is for frostbolt only. Largely irrelevant, as that’s what’s used all the time anyways
But still should be noted.
good clarification…
I always sort of assume you wouldn’t cast a frostbolt unless you were frost, but I guess arcane throw them as well..
Pretty rare for a firemage I think, except for rank 1 in kiting or pvp – and them +hit is (generally) irrelevant.
Actually we do throw a few frostbolts now and then. At least I do. So I have a bit higher spellhit than I’d need if I was a pure arcane mage, 120-something, to make the frostbolts hit as well…
though the frostbolts are more and more rare so I’m pondering upon if I should give up that idea.
[...] July 31, 2008 by gnomeaggedon << Ducking and Weaving – Fire #2 [...]